Mary in the Book of Revelation (y mas)

A very informative and interesting FB exchange! The names have been changed for the sake of privacy. If any of the authors want anonymity lifted just let me know. :-)
I borrowed a status update from a friend (who is much more learned than I). It sparked a comment from "Hanna" and we were off and running.
I learned (and remembered) . . . and decided to re-read Revelation!  :-)
Here is the status update followed by the commentary:

December 27 is the feast of the apostle John, author of the fourth gospel, three epistles, and the Book of Revelation. His writings strongly emphasized the divinity of Christ, the Eucharist, and devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mother. Tradition holds that John was the youngest apostle and probably never married, that he was the only apostle who stood at the foot of the cross. There, Jesus entrusted John with the care of Mary. Tradition says that he brought her to Turkey and built her a small home outside the city of Ephesus. John is believed to have been the last living apostle and a major advocate of doctrinal and theological orthodoxy against the heresies that were rising amongst 2nd generation Christians.

~~> Divinity of Christ- John ch. 1
~~> Mission of Christ, need for baptism- John ch. 3
~~> Eucharist- John chapters 5 and 6
~~> Mary as mother of the Church- Revelation ch. 12

Hanna:

Sorry Peggy but Revelation 12 is referring to Israel during the final 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation. NOT Mary. The other topics...perhaps I'll post something about them later...at work right now but needed to clarify the misunderstanding about Mary.

Mel:Revelation 12 is a dual reference, in part to Mary and in part to Ecclesia, the Church as Bride of Christ. In verse 5, we see the woman giving "birth to a male child destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne." Since the male child is obviously Jesus, the woman who gave birth to him is obviously Mary.

But in the next lines, we see that she is the mother of many children who bear witness to Jesus. That doesn't much sound like Israel, but like the persecuted Church, especially if we see the dragon as both Satan and Rome. Elsewhere, the New Testament refers to the Church as the bride of Christ. Notice that John's gospel begins with Christ and his mother at a wedding. The Church is founded by Christ through the 12 apostles, represented by the 12 stars.

Mel:
But in the next lines, we see that she is the mother of many children who bear witness to Jesus. That doesn't much sound like Israel, but like the persecuted Church, especially if we see the dragon as both Satan and Rome. Elsewhere, the New Testament refers to the Church as the bride of Christ. Notice that John's gospel begins with Christ and his mother at a wedding. The Church is founded by Christ through the 12 apostles, represented by the 12 stars.

Caub:
Hanna, where do you get this view/belief from?

Mel:Far from endorsing pro-Israel dispensationalism, John's Book of Revelation begins by referring to the Jews as frauds and Satanists. We are people of the New Covenant, and the New Israel of that Covenant is the Church. John hints at this back in his gospel's 5th chapter, when the 12 apostles feed the followers of Christ and collect 12 baskets of leftovers. And again when Revelation tells us that those saved are 144,000. That number = 12 apostles x 12 tribes of the New Israel x 1000 (fullness, forever).

Caub:
Mel, may I ask you a question? What is your faith persuasion? Hanna, same question to you, if you don't mind? Thanks.

Mel:
Remember that in the OT, Israel is not a place but a man and his 12 sons, a man through whom the Covenant comes. The new and everlasting covenant comes through Jesus through his 12 apostles. And remember that when Joshua led the Israelites into the kingdom of the covenant, he was eventually replaced by judges. Jesus, which is Greek for "Joshua" told the 12 apostles that they would sit on thrones as judges in his kingdom.

Mel:
Remember that in the OT, Israel is not a place but a man and his 12 sons, a man through whom the Covenant comes. The new and everlasting covenant comes through Jesus through his 12 apostles. And remember that when Joshua led the Israelites into the kingdom of the covenant, he was eventually replaced by judges. Jesus, which is Greek for "Joshua" told the 12 apostles that they would sit on thrones as judges in his kingdom.

Mel:I'm a Cat'lic Cajun from N'awlins. Small world, isn't it? LOL

Caub:
Indeed. Who DAT?

Caub:
Mel, Revelation is actually a four part reference: Mary as Israel, the Church, Eve, and Mary.

Mel
Yes, we see all of salvation history played out in this one vision- Eve and Israel (past), Mary(the New Eve) and the Church (the New Israel)- present and future.

Caub:
Hanna, I was hoping to hear from you to explain your views above, but, no such luck. In short, you are a little off base. The blessed Virgin is depicted with 12 stars over her head because in Revelation 12:1-2, a pregnant woman who is about to give birth is clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and with a crown of twelve stars on her head. The woman is believed to symbolize the Blessed Mother, among other things, because the child she delivers is "a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron ... [and] her child was caught up to God and to his throne" (Rev. 12:5). The stars in the crown may represent either Christ's 12 apostles or the 12 tribes of Israel. I have much more to say on this, if you'd care to explain your, uh, somewhat unusual take on the chapter. Thanks, and God bless you.

Hannahttp://www.thepropheticyears.com/The%20book%20of%20Revelation/Revelation%20Chapter%2012.htm 
Go to this link for the Biblical explanation of Revelation 12.
Revelation chapter 12 commentary
www.thepropheticyears.com
Futurist commentary on Revelation chapter 12, by Don Koenig - John sees a woman ...with a Man Child and a red dragon who seeks to devour the Child as soon as He is born

Caub:
Well, Hanna, I have a few thoughts about this. First, it is most significant to note that Adam and Eve were revealed merely as "the man" and "the woman," before the woman’s name was changed after the fall to "Eve." (In Hebrew, Eve means “mother of the living.")

When you then look at the New Covenant, Jesus is explicitly referred to as the "last Adam," or the "New Adam" in 1 Cor. 15:45. Jesus himself then indicates that Mary is the prophetic "woman" or "New Eve" of Genesis 3:15 when he refers to her as "woman" in John 2:4 and 19:26.

St. John also refers to Mary as "woman" EIGHT times in Revelation 12. As the first Eve brought death to all her children through disobedience of God and heeding the call of the serpent, the devil, the "New Eve" of Revelation 12 brings life and salvation to all her children through her obedience.

The same "serpent" that deceived the original “woman” of Genesis is revealed, in Revelation 12, to fail in his attempt to overcome this NEW woman. The New Eve, of course, overcomes the serpent, and as a result, "The serpent is angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God, and bear testimony to Jesus" (Rev. 12:17).

Caub:
Second, since your link references "symbolic scripture," let’s take a deeper look at this. Revelation says, "And a great portent appeared in heaven, a Woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery. . . . [S]he brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne. . . . Then the dragon was angry with the Woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus" (Rev. 12:1–2, 5, 17).

There is some debate about what the symbol of this Woman represents, and there are several different possible meanings, depending on how one reads it.

Unfortunately, most of the debate over what the “Woman” represents is misdirected because it does not take into account the way that Revelation uses symbolism.

You see, the vision contains "fusion imagery." In “fusion imagery,” one symbol is composed of elements from several different things. For example, the four living creatures John sees around God’s throne (4:6–8) are a fusion of elements from the cherubim seen in Ezekiel10:1–14 and the seraphim seen in Isaiah 6:1–5.

Similarly, the priest-elders John sees around the throne (4:4) are numbered 24 because they are a fusion of the 12 patriarchs of Israel and the 12 apostles of Jesus, a symbolism that occurs at the end of the book (21:12–14), where New Jerusalem is seen to have 12 foundations with the names of the 12 apostles and 12 gates with the names of the 12 patriarchs.

The beast from the sea in chapter 13 is a fusion of elements from the all four of the beasts the prophet Daniel saw emerge from the sea in chapter 7 of his book.

Similarly, Polyvalent symbolism - in which symbols have more than one meaning – is also part of Revelation’s imagery. For example, the seven heads of the beast are said to be both seven mountains (Rev. 17:9) and seven kings (17:10).

The “Woman” in Revelation 12 is part of the fusion imagery/polyvalent symbolism that is found in the book. She has four referents: Israel, the Church, Eve, and Mary.

She is Israel because she is associated with the sun, the moon, and 12 stars. These symbols are drawn from Genesis 37:9–11, in which Joseph has a dream of the sun and moon (symbolizing his father and mother) and stars (representing his brothers), which bow down to him. Taken together, the sun, moon, and 12 stars symbolize the people of Israel.

The Woman is the Church because, as 12:17 tells us, "the rest of her offspring" are those who bear witness to Jesus, making them Christians.

The Woman is Eve because she is part of the 3-way conflict also involving her Seed and the Dragon, who is identified with the ancient serpent (the one from Eden) in 20:2. This mirrors the conflict in Genesis 3:15 among Eve, the serpent, and her unborn seed. In turn, this is a symbol of the conflict among Mary, Satan, and Jesus.

Finally, the Woman is Mary because she is the mother of Jesus, the child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron (19:11–16).

Because the Woman is a four-way symbol, different aspects of the narrative apply to different referents. Like Mary, she is pictured as being in heaven and she flies (mirroring Mary’s Assumption). Like the Church, she is persecuted by the Devil after the Ascension of Christ. Like Israel, she experiences great trauma as the Messiah is brought forth (figuratively) from the nation. And like Eve, it is her (distant) seed with which the serpent has his primary conflict.

Conversely, portions of the narrative do not apply to each referent. Mary did not experience literal pain when bringing forth the Messiah, but she suffered figuratively (the prophecy that a sword would pierce her heart at the Crucifixion). Eve did not ascend to heaven. And the Church did not bring forth the Messiah (rather, the Messiah brought forth his Church).

Caub:
Third, and finally, I mined the "prophetic years" website and find it, well, intellectually immature, particularly the "Statement of Faith."
Two questions I'd have for the guy who wrote the website (Don Koenig) and you, as his follower, are: (1) How do you know the book you are holding in your hand is the Bible? Seriously, it doesn't have an inspired table of contents, so how and when - precisely - did we get it, and in what form?
(2) For a Christian, truth is important (it will set us free), and Jesus Christ IS the truth. So, for a Christian, what is the pillar and foundation of all truth? Don and you, I assume, would say that the pillar and foundation of all truth is the Bible. Would my assumption be correct? Thanks, and God bless....

Caub:
One more thing... Here are some, um, interesting observations from Don Koenig’s website (linked at the bottom):

“The whole world monetary system will have to be scrapped, the most advanced nations will be technically bankrupted because of debt. A new world monetary system will be set up.”

“By the end of the decade (this was written in 2009, so it was obviously wrong) religious teaching on the air waves and Internet will be controlled. You will have to subscribe to receive any religious teachings. Proselytizing will not be allowed in most of the world.”

“The true Church of Jesus Christ will have to go underground in most areas of the world and she will be at great risk.” (Interesting how this conflicts with Matthew 16)

“Due to the growing differences between liberals and conservatives certain states in the United States will secede and there might even be a civil war. There certainly will be conflicts in areas where police attempt to take away peoples guns. I think the nation will break up into several separate nation states based on ideology but that the separate nations will continue to have open borders and reciprocal agreements.”

“By the end of the decade all nation states in North America will join a new North American Union or face total isolation.”

“There will be total surveillance of all electronic communications. The Internet will be policed, monitored and filtered. Talk radio and websites will have to be politically correct or they will be shut down.”
“There will be food and gas rationing for most of the decade. Fuel will be very expensive and travel will be restricted.”

“Government will tax 90 percent of income over a certain level.”

And my favorite: “In spite of what some are now teaching, the Lord will not physically return to earth during this decade BUT THE RAPTURE COULD OCCUR (OR IT MAY NOT).” Good one, Don, way to go out on a limb!

Yup, Don Koenig is surely a guy I’d hitch my spiritual wagon to!! Sheesh, what a loon!

http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/don-koenigs-2010-2020-world-trends-forecast.html
Don Koenig's world trends forecast for 2010-2020 AD
www.thepropheticyears.com
Don Koenig's world trends forecast for 2010-2020 AD

Mel
To refer to "THE Biblical explanation" implies that there is only ONE Biblical explanation. It also implies that my explanation is UNbiblical. That is presumptuous, along with a few other adjectives I'll avoid.

Caub
Yeah, Mel, perhaps I should have been a little less presumptuous. But, if you read the guy's website, well, it's really funny/sad/odd/immature/silly - pick a few more...

Mel
Don't worry Caub- I wasn't talking to you! LOL

Why We Memorize and Recite Traditional Prayers

We read in the gospels that he apostles came to Jesus and asked him to teach them to pray. He didn't tell them to search their hearts and just talk to God in their own words. He gave them a structured, formatted prayer containing essential Christian beliefs
----> God as our father, the coming of his kingdom, our daily bread, forgiveness, and the need for God's grace to overcome temptation and Satan. We call this "The Lord's Prayer" or "The Our Father."  

Matthew and Luke present the same prayer in basically the same words, even though the were writing years apart to different audiences in different lands. This suggests that the prayer was habitually repeated throughout the far-flung early Christian world even before the evangelists committed it to paper.

In the gospels, Jesus warned his followers to not do like the pagans, the people who worshiped gods and goddesses and believed in magic, to not repeat prayers as if they were magic spells whose length and wordiness force God to act. He also warned them not to pray in an effort to impress people with the appearance of holiness. Repetitious prayer only becomes meaningless babbling and pagan theatrics only if the person repeating the prayers is unfocused or insincere. In such instances, we should blame the person, not the practice.

Rather than make the words of prayer fit what's in our hearts , repetitious prayer helps us fit our hearts to the words. The words themselves are often based on scripture or the writings of scholarly saints whose holy lives show that they were very close to Christ. 

The Prayer, by Vincent Van Gogh

Many of our prayers communicate deep and powerful mysteries of the faith. By reflecting on the meaning of the words, we deepen our intellectual understanding of God as well as our emotional ability to enter into relationship with him. The prayers protect us against false belief and unfaithful religious practices, since many of these prayers were written by the earliest Christians or by great scholarly saints.

Also, the prayers that we memorize are our birthright as Christians, an inherited treasure from our faithful ancestors, a cultural heritage passed down to from 2,000 years of martyrs and holy people who suffered so that we could receive the gospel of Christ. This legacy of prayer unites us as a family of faith, allowing us to express our love for God in a common set of words, a common language of the soul. 

When we pray the prayers we've memorized, we are echoing the words prayed by our deceased loved ones who are in Heaven with the angels at the throne of Christ. We are also praying the same prayers as other Christians all around the world, many of whom pray despite heavy oppression and persecution. When we recite traditional prayers, we are also linking ourselves to future believers, those who will inherit this legacy of faith from us.

Blessing and Adoration
Petition
Intercession
Thanksgiving
Praise
In the CCC

Joseph Hebert

Bullying v. Social Engineering

Guest Author: Joseph Hebert

UPDATE!

This discussion (in the comments following the post)  ended with that friend admitting that she is no longer a Christian. While I can accept that, I cannot accept someone pretending to be a Christian and stringing us along by arguing an issue from an allegedly Christian standpoint, complete with Bible references, etc.

I would not pretend to be a Muslim and lob all sorts of Q'uran references at a Muslim just to attempt to change his mind. I consider such dishonesty to be cowardly and sick, and said as much. I'm praying that the friend in question puts down the booze, steps away from the new lesbian whacko bar-friends, and returns to Christ before it is too late.

It's worth noting that during her brief sojourn as a Christian, she was in one of those non-denominational mega-churches that teach nothing, tell you whatever you want to hear, and pump you up on an emotional high in order to sell you books, CD's, DVD's, and so on. It's like eating candy and coke for lunch- it kills the hunger briefly and seems fun, but leads to an inevitable crash. Christ told Peter to feed his sheep, not just to turn the sheep loose and let them find food on their own. This is an example of why church affiliation matters. I thank God for the Bible and for a Church with the courage to teach it.

 

Here is the original post followed by the comments to which I refer:

The anti-bullying efforts of schools have apparently become a pro-homosexuality platform by which to guilt-trip and intimidate heterosexual kids who openly disapprove of homosexual conduct.
This agenda is presently receiving much fuel from the recent suicide of 1 or more young homosexuals, which has outpaced both of our nation's wars in news coverage.

When someone commits suicide, there's only 1 person to blame- the person who murdered himself. No one can force you to kill yourself. People have survived Nazi concentration camps (my grandpa), brutal and repeated rape, false imprisonment (Gandhi, MLK, Mandela), and not killed themselves. Suicide is for cowards who have no love for their families or the for the God who gave them life.

I pity hardcore mental cases and addicts who commit suicide, including 3 friends of mine who died young. But most suicides are just people who have been conditioned by our liberal society to expect instant gratification with no contradictions, a life with no self-denial and no self-sacrifice. They don't know how to respond to guilt, shame, disappointment, or frustration because they have an entitlement mentality.

No one can emotionally blackmail this Christian nation into condoning unnatural and evil conduct. I would never commit violence against gay people or condone such violence. I love them enough to pray that they repent. I love them enough to warn them that their conduct is sick and will lead to sickness of both body and soul. I just can't picture the God who inseparably mingled love and life approving of a selfish form of love that is hopelessly incapable of making life.

I understand homosexuals well because I am one of them. By that, I mean that I too am a human who faces the daily (hourly, even!) temptation to sin. Any alcoholic living sober (and I know at least one) can attest to God's grace and man's free will working together to overcome an evil inclination that the individual may have been born with.

We are all, both gay and straight, asked to confine our sexuality to its natural, God-given purpose. And when we fail, we should try to do better rather than demanding that the human community rewrite its religions and laws and lower its standards by rejecting natural and divine law to keep us "happy".

 ________________________________________________________________________

UPDATE:

 The comments over on FB provide even more information, food for thought and excellent evangelizing.

THE AUTHOR NOTES:
      I wrote that in response to a church-going, Bible-studying friend who asked " Who's wearing purple today in memory of recent suicide due to gay abuse?"

      Here's her response, in which she calls my response "sad, irritating, judgmental, and hypocritical"...

     
SHE WRITES: 

     "people who...don't know how to respond to guilt, shame, disappointment, or frustration because they have an entitlement mentality" are not that way by their own fault. As you said, they" have been conditioned by our liberal society". If a child is raised in the wild, he will act wild. You can't blame people who haven't been shown how to have "self-denial and sacrifice" because they weren't born to a loving family and they are in so much pain and feel they have no where to turn and no one who cares. Try to open your mind and have some empathy. It's sad, and actually quite irritating,when someone throws God's name around while judging others about something they don't understand. It makes Christians look like many people think: judgmental and hypocritical...No wonder.

     
MY RESPONSE:
      there's an obvious difference between judging a person versus judging an act. I don't judge drunks, but I surely judge drunk driving. And I'm sure God doesn't mind being quoted, even though I know that's out of style on the feel-good buy-my-book entertainment church-of-the week circuit.

      And yes, we HAVE all been shown examples of self-denial and sacrifice, assuming we all had parents or grandparents who sacrificed to raise us. And assuming that we stop and wonder who's the guy hanging on the cross (do they still allow crucifixes in churches, or is it too much a downer?)

      My best friend in high school was gay and I never dropped him for it, even when others did. But I didn't tell him whatever he wanted to hear, either. Sometimes loving people involves telling them uncomfortable truths. Sometimes it means telling a drunk to put down the wine bottle, a lazy person to get a job, and telling a homosexual to practice self-restraint.

      And yes, I understand homosexuality. Because homosexuals are human, like me. Which means that they have free will, temptation, and are expected to join the rest of us in practicing self-control.

      You have no idea what I do or don't understand and shouldn't resort to the trite liberal cliche of calling people closed-minded and not empathetic just for disagreeing with you.

     
HER RESPONSE:
      Now you're attacking other churches, which you have never attended. Do you honestly think that Woodlands Church doesn't quote God?? Really?? Not that I disagree with the "feel good church" and your opinion of it, therefore, that point is null and void. All churches aside, allow me to quote some Jimmy Needham:
      “We pass out paper facts all week but they won’t come around;
      Apologetic reasoning, but they won’t come around, come around;
      There’s only one way they’ll come and it’s LOVE!”

      And no, not everyone has been shown examples of self denial and sacrifice, at least not in a way that is recognized as such. If a child has his basic needs met, he has clothes, food and roof over his head, but his parents don't express love and affection, don't pay attention to him, leaves him home to go out and party or whatever, basically does not meet their emotional needs, and/or are emotionally and/or physically abuses the child, is that self sacrifice? Do you think the child would recognize the fact that he has a roof over his head and food in his belly as self sacrifice in this situation? This is actually quite common. I was emotionally neglected all through my childhood. As a result...well, I won't disclose all my issues, but I had them. Thankfully, I worked through them. Some people are not that fortunate and no, they shouldn’t be blamed. People, in general, do the best they can with what they have. You should know this as well or better than anyone.

      You don’t judge people, just actions. Who appointed you judge and jury of anyone OR any act??? “Thou shalt not judge…”…writing in the sand, J. C’mon. I don’t think Jesus would approve, J. You have no business throwing any stones. No one does.

      Crucifixes at the church, well, again, you're attacking other churches and that's beside the point.

      I thought this was about suicide?? Not gays? This is about people, straight or gay, who feel so hopeless, with nowhere to turn that they feel their only way out of the pain is to take their own lives. Yea, it is a selfish act. It would be much more selfless to be martyrs and continue to endure the suffering, or better yet, get some help and work through their issues. But, considering that most suicides are committed by adolescence, there is a good chance that the opportunity to get help was never presented to them. As a teenager of an alcoholic and neglectful mother, an abusive step dad and an absent father, even when my mom died when I was 15, help was never presented to me. I wanted help, but no one was paying any attention to me. So, just maybe, you don't understand what other people are feeling because you are not them; you are you. What I suggest is that if you can't empathize with other people because you obviously don't “feel” that way that you realize and appreciate that you don't understand how they feel and not judge them for how they handle their problems. Some people are incapable of dealing with their problems the way we can and they don’t have to be hardcore mental cases for God to “go easy” on them.

      Speaking the truth in love is all well and good, and necessary, but that's not really the issue here, is it? When you say “tell the homosexual to practice self-restraint”, what exactly are you referring to? Them committing suicide or practicing homosexuality? Once again, this isn't about sexual preference, it's about bullying PEOPLE to the point that they feel the only escape from the pain is taking their lives!!! That is the issue.

      Since you seem so hell bent on focusing on sexual preference, let’s do that. Homosexuals go as far back as written history, no? Obviously they were around in Biblical days; however, always with a sinful light shined upon them. Meanwhile, our beloved David, the man after God’s own heart, not only covets his neighbor’s wife, but commits adultery with her, gets her pregnant, tries to cover it up by sending his loyal servant, Bathsheba’s husband, home to have sex with her, and when that doesn’t work (because he is so loyal), sends the poor guy to the front lines to have him killed. Do gay people do that???? Give me an f’n break! Leave the gay people alone! There are plenty of people who can attribute to “make life”, obviously! Between me and you alone, we have 10 kids!!See More
 
     
MY RESPONSE:
      Your original post wove together 3 topics- suicide, abuse, and homosexuality. I believe that all 3 are gravely wrong. You obviously feel that suicide is wrong too, or you wouldn't care one way or the other. And you obviously fee...l that abuse... is wrong. And you feel that abusers are sometimes guilty of driving others to suicide. That's 3 moral judgments on your part.

      From there you go on to claim that Christians are somehow forbidden to judge the moral quality of human conduct. That in itself is a judgment. Then you judge that anyone disagreeing is close minded and not empathetic, which is in itself close minded and not empathetic in response.

      The real question is whether you want to obey and share the teachings of the God of the Bible or the god of this world. Telling people whatever they want to hear and ignoring their self-destructive conduct isn't love- it's a lie. When Lucifer poses as God, he does so by promising "freedom" and a warped sense of self-love that empowers sin rather than empowering us to rise against sin. He builds churches where you can feel good without having to BE good.

      There's no point calling yourself a Christian and going to church if you're going to pick and choose which parts of the Bible to obey based on what's popular at this time in the world. Homosexual conduct, according to both the Old and the New Testaments, is a terrible sin. So is suicide. So is abuse. Agree or disagree, but don't warp or ignore God's Word to fit the political flavor of the week.

      God is the God of life. Any act which gravely disrespects life- suicide, abuse, abortion, homosexuality- is evil. If someone rejects God by rejecting life and life-giving love in this world, what makes you think God will force that person to be with Him in the next world?

     
RESPONSE FROM LESBIAN FRIEND:
      Deleted too quickly for me to copy and paste! But she said that "people like me" are slowing the pace of progress in our society. She also proceeded to say that she'd never have an abortion but that there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

     
MY RESPONSE:
      Thanks for the good news. Giving me credit for helping stop what you call "progress" really makes me feel like all my efforts as a Christian educator and political activist are worthwhile. You just helped me through a major period of self-doubt. High-5!

      Seriously, rest assured that God loves you and other homosexuals. So do I. He also loves alcoholics enough to ask them to refrain from drinking. He loves suicidal people enough to give them life. He loves you so much that he doesn't want to leave you wallowing in self-destructive conduct that contradicts the plan he wrote into both nature and Bible.

      If you re-read what I wrote, I did indeed address the fact that many suicides are due to extenuating circumstances such as addiction and mental illness. I even noted that 3 good friends of mine died that way.

      Concerning abortion, it is indeed a choice. Murder is one of the oldest choices humans have exercised on earth. And if you insist that abortion isn't wrong, but then simultaneously insist you'd never have one, then that doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't you ever do it? How can YOU be so closed minded as to rule out ever having a "medical procedure" that you insist isn't wrong?

      And even though you choose to sling labels such as "ignorant" while complaining of abuse, I will not reply in kind. Instead, I will pray that you will join the thousands of people who escape the gay lifestyle, recognize abortion as genocide, and realize that God doesn't just want to tickle your heart- he wants to change it.

     
ANOTHER PERSON JUMPS IN:
      Hey, to add to you comments, I just wanted to say that everyone that follows the bible "picks and chooses", it is a book filled with contradictions that if you tried to follow every single"rule" in it you would end up stoned to death or at least thinking you deserve it.
      This comes down to 1 single truth...these kids were KIDS! Do we know if they had anyone to tell them "life will be OK". I'm guessing they didn't and that their parents probably weren't to supportive because the Bible told them their kids were abominations and didn't deserve love. Add to that...being picked on in school...living life in fear, and being physically abused. Do you know what hopeless feels like? Obviously you don't. God has nothing to do with what happened...Jesus taught love did he not...where is the love in that? Tough love? I think we have proven it does not work.

     
MY RESPONSE:
      Let me restate for 4th time that I don't approve of verbal or physical violence against anyone, especially kids.

      Let me also restate for the 4th time that I expect God's judgment of a suicide is swayed by the person's mental state.

      It seems that you are deliberately mischaracterizing what I've said in an effort to pigeonhole and stereotype, and then dismiss my point.
      That in itself is abusive and closed minded and  not empathetic.

      Concerning the Bible, both Jesus and St. Paul stated repeatedly that the Christian is not required to follow Old Testament food taboos, etc. But when Jesus himself spoke about marriage in the New Testament, he did so in terms of 1 man and 1 woman. He even went 1 further than the Jews by forbidding divorce. The writings of the apostles in the NT and the non-Biblical writings of early Christian leaders affirm a strict attitude towards human sexuality.

      You may find me arrogant, but that's nothing compared to the arrogance of taking a black magic marker to your Bible and rewriting God's word to suit your politics. If God's Word weren't challenging, it wouldn't be worth our time, and it wouldn't be worth dying for. I'm not looking to dumb down Jesus into a male version of Oprah just so I can walk a wider, easier road.

     
MY CLOSING RESPONSE to my church-going, Bible-studying friend who doesn't consider suicide and homosexual conduct sinful:

      Jesus ate and drank with sinners and whores. But he didn't give them high-5's for their conduct. Mary Magdalene stopped turning tricks once she started following Christ. If you really love homosexuals, love them enough to tell them they're risking spiritual self-destruction. You owe your fellow children of God that much. Seek to give love instead of selfishly seeking to gain the love of others at all costs.
     
      My hope in cutting and pasting the entire exchange is to protect it from being FURTHER deleted by people are ashamed of what they've expressed. Shame is good if it helps people change the behavior. This conversation shows what ignorance dominates the godless, including wishy-washy flavor-of-the week churches that just milk people for money and fill them with cotton candy. Whether you are Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal, or any other traditional school of Christianity, this is why we have to fight the good fight to keep our churches rooted in God's Word as it has been understood by 2,000 years of martyrs who died for it! If sin and hell weren't real, then what did Jesus "save" us from? Why did he preach that we must "repent" if we can get into the Kingdom exactly as we already are? These people call Jesus himself a liar, then claim to love him, thus betraying him with a kiss.

UPDATE!

The discussion ended with that friend admitting that she is no longer a Christian. While I can accept that, I cannot accept someone pretending to be a Christian and stringing us along by arguing an issue from an allegedly Christian standpoint, complete with Bible references, etc.

I would not pretend to be a Muslim and lob all sorts of Q'uran references at a Muslim just to attempt to change his mind. I consider such dishonesty to be cowardly and sick, and said as much. I'm praying that the friend in question puts down the booze, steps away from the new lesbian whacko bar-friends, and returns to Christ before it is too late.

It's worth noting that during her brief sojourn as a Christian, she was in one of those non-denominational mega-churches that teach nothing, tell you whatever you want to hear, and pump you up on an emotional high in order to sell you books, CD's, DVD's, and so on. It's like eating candy and coke for lunch- it kills the hunger briefly and seems fun, but leads to an inevitable crash. Christ told Peter to feed his sheep, not just to turn the sheep loose and let them find food on their own. This is an example of why church affiliation matters. I thank God for the Bible and for a Church with the courage to teach it.