Guest Author: Joseph Hebert
UPDATE!
The anti-bullying efforts of schools have apparently become a pro-homosexuality platform by which to guilt-trip and intimidate heterosexual kids who openly disapprove of homosexual conduct.
This agenda is presently receiving much fuel from the recent suicide of 1 or more young homosexuals, which has outpaced both of our nation's wars in news coverage.
When someone commits suicide, there's only 1 person to blame- the person who murdered himself. No one can force you to kill yourself. People have survived Nazi concentration camps (my grandpa), brutal and repeated rape, false imprisonment (Gandhi, MLK, Mandela), and not killed themselves. Suicide is for cowards who have no love for their families or the for the God who gave them life.
I pity hardcore mental cases and addicts who commit suicide, including 3 friends of mine who died young. But most suicides are just people who have been conditioned by our liberal society to expect instant gratification with no contradictions, a life with no self-denial and no self-sacrifice. They don't know how to respond to guilt, shame, disappointment, or frustration because they have an entitlement mentality.
No one can emotionally blackmail this Christian nation into condoning unnatural and evil conduct. I would never commit violence against gay people or condone such violence. I love them enough to pray that they repent. I love them enough to warn them that their conduct is sick and will lead to sickness of both body and soul. I just can't picture the God who inseparably mingled love and life approving of a selfish form of love that is hopelessly incapable of making life.
I understand homosexuals well because I am one of them. By that, I mean that I too am a human who faces the daily (hourly, even!) temptation to sin. Any alcoholic living sober (and I know at least one) can attest to God's grace and man's free will working together to overcome an evil inclination that the individual may have been born with.
We are all, both gay and straight, asked to confine our sexuality to its natural, God-given purpose. And when we fail, we should try to do better rather than demanding that the human community rewrite its religions and laws and lower its standards by rejecting natural and divine law to keep us "happy".
UPDATE:
UPDATE!
This discussion (in the comments following the post) ended with that friend admitting that she is no longer a Christian. While I can accept that, I cannot accept someone pretending to be a Christian and stringing us along by arguing an issue from an allegedly Christian standpoint, complete with Bible references, etc.
I would not pretend to be a Muslim and lob all sorts of Q'uran references at a Muslim just to attempt to change his mind. I consider such dishonesty to be cowardly and sick, and said as much. I'm praying that the friend in question puts down the booze, steps away from the new lesbian whacko bar-friends, and returns to Christ before it is too late.
It's worth noting that during her brief sojourn as a Christian, she was in one of those non-denominational mega-churches that teach nothing, tell you whatever you want to hear, and pump you up on an emotional high in order to sell you books, CD's, DVD's, and so on. It's like eating candy and coke for lunch- it kills the hunger briefly and seems fun, but leads to an inevitable crash. Christ told Peter to feed his sheep, not just to turn the sheep loose and let them find food on their own. This is an example of why church affiliation matters. I thank God for the Bible and for a Church with the courage to teach it.
I would not pretend to be a Muslim and lob all sorts of Q'uran references at a Muslim just to attempt to change his mind. I consider such dishonesty to be cowardly and sick, and said as much. I'm praying that the friend in question puts down the booze, steps away from the new lesbian whacko bar-friends, and returns to Christ before it is too late.
It's worth noting that during her brief sojourn as a Christian, she was in one of those non-denominational mega-churches that teach nothing, tell you whatever you want to hear, and pump you up on an emotional high in order to sell you books, CD's, DVD's, and so on. It's like eating candy and coke for lunch- it kills the hunger briefly and seems fun, but leads to an inevitable crash. Christ told Peter to feed his sheep, not just to turn the sheep loose and let them find food on their own. This is an example of why church affiliation matters. I thank God for the Bible and for a Church with the courage to teach it.
Here is the original post followed by the comments to which I refer:
The anti-bullying efforts of schools have apparently become a pro-homosexuality platform by which to guilt-trip and intimidate heterosexual kids who openly disapprove of homosexual conduct.
This agenda is presently receiving much fuel from the recent suicide of 1 or more young homosexuals, which has outpaced both of our nation's wars in news coverage.
When someone commits suicide, there's only 1 person to blame- the person who murdered himself. No one can force you to kill yourself. People have survived Nazi concentration camps (my grandpa), brutal and repeated rape, false imprisonment (Gandhi, MLK, Mandela), and not killed themselves. Suicide is for cowards who have no love for their families or the for the God who gave them life.
I pity hardcore mental cases and addicts who commit suicide, including 3 friends of mine who died young. But most suicides are just people who have been conditioned by our liberal society to expect instant gratification with no contradictions, a life with no self-denial and no self-sacrifice. They don't know how to respond to guilt, shame, disappointment, or frustration because they have an entitlement mentality.
No one can emotionally blackmail this Christian nation into condoning unnatural and evil conduct. I would never commit violence against gay people or condone such violence. I love them enough to pray that they repent. I love them enough to warn them that their conduct is sick and will lead to sickness of both body and soul. I just can't picture the God who inseparably mingled love and life approving of a selfish form of love that is hopelessly incapable of making life.
I understand homosexuals well because I am one of them. By that, I mean that I too am a human who faces the daily (hourly, even!) temptation to sin. Any alcoholic living sober (and I know at least one) can attest to God's grace and man's free will working together to overcome an evil inclination that the individual may have been born with.
We are all, both gay and straight, asked to confine our sexuality to its natural, God-given purpose. And when we fail, we should try to do better rather than demanding that the human community rewrite its religions and laws and lower its standards by rejecting natural and divine law to keep us "happy".
________________________________________________________________________
UPDATE:
The comments over on FB provide even more information, food for thought and excellent evangelizing.
THE AUTHOR NOTES:
I wrote that in response to a church-going, Bible-studying friend who asked " Who's wearing purple today in memory of recent suicide due to gay abuse?"
Here's her response, in which she calls my response "sad, irritating, judgmental, and hypocritical"...
SHE WRITES:
THE AUTHOR NOTES:
I wrote that in response to a church-going, Bible-studying friend who asked " Who's wearing purple today in memory of recent suicide due to gay abuse?"
Here's her response, in which she calls my response "sad, irritating, judgmental, and hypocritical"...
SHE WRITES:
"people who...don't know how to respond to guilt, shame, disappointment, or frustration because they have an entitlement mentality" are not that way by their own fault. As you said, they" have been conditioned by our liberal society". If a child is raised in the wild, he will act wild. You can't blame people who haven't been shown how to have "self-denial and sacrifice" because they weren't born to a loving family and they are in so much pain and feel they have no where to turn and no one who cares. Try to open your mind and have some empathy. It's sad, and actually quite irritating,when someone throws God's name around while judging others about something they don't understand. It makes Christians look like many people think: judgmental and hypocritical...No wonder.
MY RESPONSE:
there's an obvious difference between judging a person versus judging an act. I don't judge drunks, but I surely judge drunk driving. And I'm sure God doesn't mind being quoted, even though I know that's out of style on the feel-good buy-my-book entertainment church-of-the week circuit.
And yes, we HAVE all been shown examples of self-denial and sacrifice, assuming we all had parents or grandparents who sacrificed to raise us. And assuming that we stop and wonder who's the guy hanging on the cross (do they still allow crucifixes in churches, or is it too much a downer?)
My best friend in high school was gay and I never dropped him for it, even when others did. But I didn't tell him whatever he wanted to hear, either. Sometimes loving people involves telling them uncomfortable truths. Sometimes it means telling a drunk to put down the wine bottle, a lazy person to get a job, and telling a homosexual to practice self-restraint.
And yes, I understand homosexuality. Because homosexuals are human, like me. Which means that they have free will, temptation, and are expected to join the rest of us in practicing self-control.
You have no idea what I do or don't understand and shouldn't resort to the trite liberal cliche of calling people closed-minded and not empathetic just for disagreeing with you.
HER RESPONSE:
Now you're attacking other churches, which you have never attended. Do you honestly think that Woodlands Church doesn't quote God?? Really?? Not that I disagree with the "feel good church" and your opinion of it, therefore, that point is null and void. All churches aside, allow me to quote some Jimmy Needham:
“We pass out paper facts all week but they won’t come around;
Apologetic reasoning, but they won’t come around, come around;
There’s only one way they’ll come and it’s LOVE!”
And no, not everyone has been shown examples of self denial and sacrifice, at least not in a way that is recognized as such. If a child has his basic needs met, he has clothes, food and roof over his head, but his parents don't express love and affection, don't pay attention to him, leaves him home to go out and party or whatever, basically does not meet their emotional needs, and/or are emotionally and/or physically abuses the child, is that self sacrifice? Do you think the child would recognize the fact that he has a roof over his head and food in his belly as self sacrifice in this situation? This is actually quite common. I was emotionally neglected all through my childhood. As a result...well, I won't disclose all my issues, but I had them. Thankfully, I worked through them. Some people are not that fortunate and no, they shouldn’t be blamed. People, in general, do the best they can with what they have. You should know this as well or better than anyone.
You don’t judge people, just actions. Who appointed you judge and jury of anyone OR any act??? “Thou shalt not judge…”…writing in the sand, J. C’mon. I don’t think Jesus would approve, J. You have no business throwing any stones. No one does.
Crucifixes at the church, well, again, you're attacking other churches and that's beside the point.
I thought this was about suicide?? Not gays? This is about people, straight or gay, who feel so hopeless, with nowhere to turn that they feel their only way out of the pain is to take their own lives. Yea, it is a selfish act. It would be much more selfless to be martyrs and continue to endure the suffering, or better yet, get some help and work through their issues. But, considering that most suicides are committed by adolescence, there is a good chance that the opportunity to get help was never presented to them. As a teenager of an alcoholic and neglectful mother, an abusive step dad and an absent father, even when my mom died when I was 15, help was never presented to me. I wanted help, but no one was paying any attention to me. So, just maybe, you don't understand what other people are feeling because you are not them; you are you. What I suggest is that if you can't empathize with other people because you obviously don't “feel” that way that you realize and appreciate that you don't understand how they feel and not judge them for how they handle their problems. Some people are incapable of dealing with their problems the way we can and they don’t have to be hardcore mental cases for God to “go easy” on them.
Speaking the truth in love is all well and good, and necessary, but that's not really the issue here, is it? When you say “tell the homosexual to practice self-restraint”, what exactly are you referring to? Them committing suicide or practicing homosexuality? Once again, this isn't about sexual preference, it's about bullying PEOPLE to the point that they feel the only escape from the pain is taking their lives!!! That is the issue.
Since you seem so hell bent on focusing on sexual preference, let’s do that. Homosexuals go as far back as written history, no? Obviously they were around in Biblical days; however, always with a sinful light shined upon them. Meanwhile, our beloved David, the man after God’s own heart, not only covets his neighbor’s wife, but commits adultery with her, gets her pregnant, tries to cover it up by sending his loyal servant, Bathsheba’s husband, home to have sex with her, and when that doesn’t work (because he is so loyal), sends the poor guy to the front lines to have him killed. Do gay people do that???? Give me an f’n break! Leave the gay people alone! There are plenty of people who can attribute to “make life”, obviously! Between me and you alone, we have 10 kids!!See More
MY RESPONSE:
Your original post wove together 3 topics- suicide, abuse, and homosexuality. I believe that all 3 are gravely wrong. You obviously feel that suicide is wrong too, or you wouldn't care one way or the other. And you obviously fee...l that abuse... is wrong. And you feel that abusers are sometimes guilty of driving others to suicide. That's 3 moral judgments on your part.
From there you go on to claim that Christians are somehow forbidden to judge the moral quality of human conduct. That in itself is a judgment. Then you judge that anyone disagreeing is close minded and not empathetic, which is in itself close minded and not empathetic in response.
The real question is whether you want to obey and share the teachings of the God of the Bible or the god of this world. Telling people whatever they want to hear and ignoring their self-destructive conduct isn't love- it's a lie. When Lucifer poses as God, he does so by promising "freedom" and a warped sense of self-love that empowers sin rather than empowering us to rise against sin. He builds churches where you can feel good without having to BE good.
There's no point calling yourself a Christian and going to church if you're going to pick and choose which parts of the Bible to obey based on what's popular at this time in the world. Homosexual conduct, according to both the Old and the New Testaments, is a terrible sin. So is suicide. So is abuse. Agree or disagree, but don't warp or ignore God's Word to fit the political flavor of the week.
God is the God of life. Any act which gravely disrespects life- suicide, abuse, abortion, homosexuality- is evil. If someone rejects God by rejecting life and life-giving love in this world, what makes you think God will force that person to be with Him in the next world?
RESPONSE FROM LESBIAN FRIEND:
Deleted too quickly for me to copy and paste! But she said that "people like me" are slowing the pace of progress in our society. She also proceeded to say that she'd never have an abortion but that there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.
MY RESPONSE:
Thanks for the good news. Giving me credit for helping stop what you call "progress" really makes me feel like all my efforts as a Christian educator and political activist are worthwhile. You just helped me through a major period of self-doubt. High-5!
Seriously, rest assured that God loves you and other homosexuals. So do I. He also loves alcoholics enough to ask them to refrain from drinking. He loves suicidal people enough to give them life. He loves you so much that he doesn't want to leave you wallowing in self-destructive conduct that contradicts the plan he wrote into both nature and Bible.
If you re-read what I wrote, I did indeed address the fact that many suicides are due to extenuating circumstances such as addiction and mental illness. I even noted that 3 good friends of mine died that way.
Concerning abortion, it is indeed a choice. Murder is one of the oldest choices humans have exercised on earth. And if you insist that abortion isn't wrong, but then simultaneously insist you'd never have one, then that doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't you ever do it? How can YOU be so closed minded as to rule out ever having a "medical procedure" that you insist isn't wrong?
And even though you choose to sling labels such as "ignorant" while complaining of abuse, I will not reply in kind. Instead, I will pray that you will join the thousands of people who escape the gay lifestyle, recognize abortion as genocide, and realize that God doesn't just want to tickle your heart- he wants to change it.
ANOTHER PERSON JUMPS IN:
Hey, to add to you comments, I just wanted to say that everyone that follows the bible "picks and chooses", it is a book filled with contradictions that if you tried to follow every single"rule" in it you would end up stoned to death or at least thinking you deserve it.
This comes down to 1 single truth...these kids were KIDS! Do we know if they had anyone to tell them "life will be OK". I'm guessing they didn't and that their parents probably weren't to supportive because the Bible told them their kids were abominations and didn't deserve love. Add to that...being picked on in school...living life in fear, and being physically abused. Do you know what hopeless feels like? Obviously you don't. God has nothing to do with what happened...Jesus taught love did he not...where is the love in that? Tough love? I think we have proven it does not work.
MY RESPONSE:
Let me restate for 4th time that I don't approve of verbal or physical violence against anyone, especially kids.
Let me also restate for the 4th time that I expect God's judgment of a suicide is swayed by the person's mental state.
It seems that you are deliberately mischaracterizing what I've said in an effort to pigeonhole and stereotype, and then dismiss my point.
That in itself is abusive and closed minded and not empathetic.
Concerning the Bible, both Jesus and St. Paul stated repeatedly that the Christian is not required to follow Old Testament food taboos, etc. But when Jesus himself spoke about marriage in the New Testament, he did so in terms of 1 man and 1 woman. He even went 1 further than the Jews by forbidding divorce. The writings of the apostles in the NT and the non-Biblical writings of early Christian leaders affirm a strict attitude towards human sexuality.
You may find me arrogant, but that's nothing compared to the arrogance of taking a black magic marker to your Bible and rewriting God's word to suit your politics. If God's Word weren't challenging, it wouldn't be worth our time, and it wouldn't be worth dying for. I'm not looking to dumb down Jesus into a male version of Oprah just so I can walk a wider, easier road.
MY CLOSING RESPONSE to my church-going, Bible-studying friend who doesn't consider suicide and homosexual conduct sinful:
Jesus ate and drank with sinners and whores. But he didn't give them high-5's for their conduct. Mary Magdalene stopped turning tricks once she started following Christ. If you really love homosexuals, love them enough to tell them they're risking spiritual self-destruction. You owe your fellow children of God that much. Seek to give love instead of selfishly seeking to gain the love of others at all costs.
My hope in cutting and pasting the entire exchange is to protect it from being FURTHER deleted by people are ashamed of what they've expressed. Shame is good if it helps people change the behavior. This conversation shows what ignorance dominates the godless, including wishy-washy flavor-of-the week churches that just milk people for money and fill them with cotton candy. Whether you are Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal, or any other traditional school of Christianity, this is why we have to fight the good fight to keep our churches rooted in God's Word as it has been understood by 2,000 years of martyrs who died for it! If sin and hell weren't real, then what did Jesus "save" us from? Why did he preach that we must "repent" if we can get into the Kingdom exactly as we already are? These people call Jesus himself a liar, then claim to love him, thus betraying him with a kiss.
UPDATE!
MY RESPONSE:
there's an obvious difference between judging a person versus judging an act. I don't judge drunks, but I surely judge drunk driving. And I'm sure God doesn't mind being quoted, even though I know that's out of style on the feel-good buy-my-book entertainment church-of-the week circuit.
And yes, we HAVE all been shown examples of self-denial and sacrifice, assuming we all had parents or grandparents who sacrificed to raise us. And assuming that we stop and wonder who's the guy hanging on the cross (do they still allow crucifixes in churches, or is it too much a downer?)
My best friend in high school was gay and I never dropped him for it, even when others did. But I didn't tell him whatever he wanted to hear, either. Sometimes loving people involves telling them uncomfortable truths. Sometimes it means telling a drunk to put down the wine bottle, a lazy person to get a job, and telling a homosexual to practice self-restraint.
And yes, I understand homosexuality. Because homosexuals are human, like me. Which means that they have free will, temptation, and are expected to join the rest of us in practicing self-control.
You have no idea what I do or don't understand and shouldn't resort to the trite liberal cliche of calling people closed-minded and not empathetic just for disagreeing with you.
HER RESPONSE:
Now you're attacking other churches, which you have never attended. Do you honestly think that Woodlands Church doesn't quote God?? Really?? Not that I disagree with the "feel good church" and your opinion of it, therefore, that point is null and void. All churches aside, allow me to quote some Jimmy Needham:
“We pass out paper facts all week but they won’t come around;
Apologetic reasoning, but they won’t come around, come around;
There’s only one way they’ll come and it’s LOVE!”
And no, not everyone has been shown examples of self denial and sacrifice, at least not in a way that is recognized as such. If a child has his basic needs met, he has clothes, food and roof over his head, but his parents don't express love and affection, don't pay attention to him, leaves him home to go out and party or whatever, basically does not meet their emotional needs, and/or are emotionally and/or physically abuses the child, is that self sacrifice? Do you think the child would recognize the fact that he has a roof over his head and food in his belly as self sacrifice in this situation? This is actually quite common. I was emotionally neglected all through my childhood. As a result...well, I won't disclose all my issues, but I had them. Thankfully, I worked through them. Some people are not that fortunate and no, they shouldn’t be blamed. People, in general, do the best they can with what they have. You should know this as well or better than anyone.
You don’t judge people, just actions. Who appointed you judge and jury of anyone OR any act??? “Thou shalt not judge…”…writing in the sand, J. C’mon. I don’t think Jesus would approve, J. You have no business throwing any stones. No one does.
Crucifixes at the church, well, again, you're attacking other churches and that's beside the point.
I thought this was about suicide?? Not gays? This is about people, straight or gay, who feel so hopeless, with nowhere to turn that they feel their only way out of the pain is to take their own lives. Yea, it is a selfish act. It would be much more selfless to be martyrs and continue to endure the suffering, or better yet, get some help and work through their issues. But, considering that most suicides are committed by adolescence, there is a good chance that the opportunity to get help was never presented to them. As a teenager of an alcoholic and neglectful mother, an abusive step dad and an absent father, even when my mom died when I was 15, help was never presented to me. I wanted help, but no one was paying any attention to me. So, just maybe, you don't understand what other people are feeling because you are not them; you are you. What I suggest is that if you can't empathize with other people because you obviously don't “feel” that way that you realize and appreciate that you don't understand how they feel and not judge them for how they handle their problems. Some people are incapable of dealing with their problems the way we can and they don’t have to be hardcore mental cases for God to “go easy” on them.
Speaking the truth in love is all well and good, and necessary, but that's not really the issue here, is it? When you say “tell the homosexual to practice self-restraint”, what exactly are you referring to? Them committing suicide or practicing homosexuality? Once again, this isn't about sexual preference, it's about bullying PEOPLE to the point that they feel the only escape from the pain is taking their lives!!! That is the issue.
Since you seem so hell bent on focusing on sexual preference, let’s do that. Homosexuals go as far back as written history, no? Obviously they were around in Biblical days; however, always with a sinful light shined upon them. Meanwhile, our beloved David, the man after God’s own heart, not only covets his neighbor’s wife, but commits adultery with her, gets her pregnant, tries to cover it up by sending his loyal servant, Bathsheba’s husband, home to have sex with her, and when that doesn’t work (because he is so loyal), sends the poor guy to the front lines to have him killed. Do gay people do that???? Give me an f’n break! Leave the gay people alone! There are plenty of people who can attribute to “make life”, obviously! Between me and you alone, we have 10 kids!!See More
MY RESPONSE:
Your original post wove together 3 topics- suicide, abuse, and homosexuality. I believe that all 3 are gravely wrong. You obviously feel that suicide is wrong too, or you wouldn't care one way or the other. And you obviously fee...l that abuse... is wrong. And you feel that abusers are sometimes guilty of driving others to suicide. That's 3 moral judgments on your part.
From there you go on to claim that Christians are somehow forbidden to judge the moral quality of human conduct. That in itself is a judgment. Then you judge that anyone disagreeing is close minded and not empathetic, which is in itself close minded and not empathetic in response.
The real question is whether you want to obey and share the teachings of the God of the Bible or the god of this world. Telling people whatever they want to hear and ignoring their self-destructive conduct isn't love- it's a lie. When Lucifer poses as God, he does so by promising "freedom" and a warped sense of self-love that empowers sin rather than empowering us to rise against sin. He builds churches where you can feel good without having to BE good.
There's no point calling yourself a Christian and going to church if you're going to pick and choose which parts of the Bible to obey based on what's popular at this time in the world. Homosexual conduct, according to both the Old and the New Testaments, is a terrible sin. So is suicide. So is abuse. Agree or disagree, but don't warp or ignore God's Word to fit the political flavor of the week.
God is the God of life. Any act which gravely disrespects life- suicide, abuse, abortion, homosexuality- is evil. If someone rejects God by rejecting life and life-giving love in this world, what makes you think God will force that person to be with Him in the next world?
RESPONSE FROM LESBIAN FRIEND:
Deleted too quickly for me to copy and paste! But she said that "people like me" are slowing the pace of progress in our society. She also proceeded to say that she'd never have an abortion but that there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.
MY RESPONSE:
Thanks for the good news. Giving me credit for helping stop what you call "progress" really makes me feel like all my efforts as a Christian educator and political activist are worthwhile. You just helped me through a major period of self-doubt. High-5!
Seriously, rest assured that God loves you and other homosexuals. So do I. He also loves alcoholics enough to ask them to refrain from drinking. He loves suicidal people enough to give them life. He loves you so much that he doesn't want to leave you wallowing in self-destructive conduct that contradicts the plan he wrote into both nature and Bible.
If you re-read what I wrote, I did indeed address the fact that many suicides are due to extenuating circumstances such as addiction and mental illness. I even noted that 3 good friends of mine died that way.
Concerning abortion, it is indeed a choice. Murder is one of the oldest choices humans have exercised on earth. And if you insist that abortion isn't wrong, but then simultaneously insist you'd never have one, then that doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't you ever do it? How can YOU be so closed minded as to rule out ever having a "medical procedure" that you insist isn't wrong?
And even though you choose to sling labels such as "ignorant" while complaining of abuse, I will not reply in kind. Instead, I will pray that you will join the thousands of people who escape the gay lifestyle, recognize abortion as genocide, and realize that God doesn't just want to tickle your heart- he wants to change it.
ANOTHER PERSON JUMPS IN:
Hey, to add to you comments, I just wanted to say that everyone that follows the bible "picks and chooses", it is a book filled with contradictions that if you tried to follow every single"rule" in it you would end up stoned to death or at least thinking you deserve it.
This comes down to 1 single truth...these kids were KIDS! Do we know if they had anyone to tell them "life will be OK". I'm guessing they didn't and that their parents probably weren't to supportive because the Bible told them their kids were abominations and didn't deserve love. Add to that...being picked on in school...living life in fear, and being physically abused. Do you know what hopeless feels like? Obviously you don't. God has nothing to do with what happened...Jesus taught love did he not...where is the love in that? Tough love? I think we have proven it does not work.
MY RESPONSE:
Let me restate for 4th time that I don't approve of verbal or physical violence against anyone, especially kids.
Let me also restate for the 4th time that I expect God's judgment of a suicide is swayed by the person's mental state.
It seems that you are deliberately mischaracterizing what I've said in an effort to pigeonhole and stereotype, and then dismiss my point.
That in itself is abusive and closed minded and not empathetic.
Concerning the Bible, both Jesus and St. Paul stated repeatedly that the Christian is not required to follow Old Testament food taboos, etc. But when Jesus himself spoke about marriage in the New Testament, he did so in terms of 1 man and 1 woman. He even went 1 further than the Jews by forbidding divorce. The writings of the apostles in the NT and the non-Biblical writings of early Christian leaders affirm a strict attitude towards human sexuality.
You may find me arrogant, but that's nothing compared to the arrogance of taking a black magic marker to your Bible and rewriting God's word to suit your politics. If God's Word weren't challenging, it wouldn't be worth our time, and it wouldn't be worth dying for. I'm not looking to dumb down Jesus into a male version of Oprah just so I can walk a wider, easier road.
MY CLOSING RESPONSE to my church-going, Bible-studying friend who doesn't consider suicide and homosexual conduct sinful:
Jesus ate and drank with sinners and whores. But he didn't give them high-5's for their conduct. Mary Magdalene stopped turning tricks once she started following Christ. If you really love homosexuals, love them enough to tell them they're risking spiritual self-destruction. You owe your fellow children of God that much. Seek to give love instead of selfishly seeking to gain the love of others at all costs.
My hope in cutting and pasting the entire exchange is to protect it from being FURTHER deleted by people are ashamed of what they've expressed. Shame is good if it helps people change the behavior. This conversation shows what ignorance dominates the godless, including wishy-washy flavor-of-the week churches that just milk people for money and fill them with cotton candy. Whether you are Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal, or any other traditional school of Christianity, this is why we have to fight the good fight to keep our churches rooted in God's Word as it has been understood by 2,000 years of martyrs who died for it! If sin and hell weren't real, then what did Jesus "save" us from? Why did he preach that we must "repent" if we can get into the Kingdom exactly as we already are? These people call Jesus himself a liar, then claim to love him, thus betraying him with a kiss.
UPDATE!
The discussion ended with that friend admitting that she is no longer a Christian. While I can accept that, I cannot accept someone pretending to be a Christian and stringing us along by arguing an issue from an allegedly Christian standpoint, complete with Bible references, etc.
I would not pretend to be a Muslim and lob all sorts of Q'uran references at a Muslim just to attempt to change his mind. I consider such dishonesty to be cowardly and sick, and said as much. I'm praying that the friend in question puts down the booze, steps away from the new lesbian whacko bar-friends, and returns to Christ before it is too late.
It's worth noting that during her brief sojourn as a Christian, she was in one of those non-denominational mega-churches that teach nothing, tell you whatever you want to hear, and pump you up on an emotional high in order to sell you books, CD's, DVD's, and so on. It's like eating candy and coke for lunch- it kills the hunger briefly and seems fun, but leads to an inevitable crash. Christ told Peter to feed his sheep, not just to turn the sheep loose and let them find food on their own. This is an example of why church affiliation matters. I thank God for the Bible and for a Church with the courage to teach it.
I would not pretend to be a Muslim and lob all sorts of Q'uran references at a Muslim just to attempt to change his mind. I consider such dishonesty to be cowardly and sick, and said as much. I'm praying that the friend in question puts down the booze, steps away from the new lesbian whacko bar-friends, and returns to Christ before it is too late.
It's worth noting that during her brief sojourn as a Christian, she was in one of those non-denominational mega-churches that teach nothing, tell you whatever you want to hear, and pump you up on an emotional high in order to sell you books, CD's, DVD's, and so on. It's like eating candy and coke for lunch- it kills the hunger briefly and seems fun, but leads to an inevitable crash. Christ told Peter to feed his sheep, not just to turn the sheep loose and let them find food on their own. This is an example of why church affiliation matters. I thank God for the Bible and for a Church with the courage to teach it.
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