I borrowed a status update from a friend (who is much more learned than I). It sparked a comment from "Hanna" and we were off and running.
I learned (and remembered) . . . and decided to re-read Revelation! :-)
Here is the status update followed by the commentary:
December 27 is the feast of the apostle John, author of the fourth gospel, three epistles, and the Book of Revelation. His writings strongly emphasized the divinity of Christ, the Eucharist, and devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mother. Tradition holds that John was the youngest apostle and probably never married, that he was the only apostle who stood at the foot of the cross. There, Jesus entrusted John with the care of Mary. Tradition says that he brought her to Turkey and built her a small home outside the city of Ephesus. John is believed to have been the last living apostle and a major advocate of doctrinal and theological orthodoxy against the heresies that were rising amongst 2nd generation Christians.
~~> Divinity of Christ- John ch. 1
~~> Mission of Christ, need for baptism- John ch. 3
~~> Eucharist- John chapters 5 and 6
~~> Mary as mother of the Church- Revelation ch. 12
Hanna:
Mel:Revelation 12 is a dual reference, in part to Mary and in part to Ecclesia, the Church as Bride of Christ. In verse 5, we see the woman giving "birth to a male child destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne." Since the male child is obviously Jesus, the woman who gave birth to him is obviously Mary.
But in the next lines, we see that she is the mother of many children who bear witness to Jesus. That doesn't much sound like Israel, but like the persecuted Church, especially if we see the dragon as both Satan and Rome. Elsewhere, the New Testament refers to the Church as the bride of Christ. Notice that John's gospel begins with Christ and his mother at a wedding. The Church is founded by Christ through the 12 apostles, represented by the 12 stars.
Mel:
But in the next lines, we see that she is the mother of many children who bear witness to Jesus. That doesn't much sound like Israel, but like the persecuted Church, especially if we see the dragon as both Satan and Rome. Elsewhere, the New Testament refers to the Church as the bride of Christ. Notice that John's gospel begins with Christ and his mother at a wedding. The Church is founded by Christ through the 12 apostles, represented by the 12 stars.
Caub:
Hanna, where do you get this view/belief from?
Mel:Far from endorsing pro-Israel dispensationalism, John's Book of Revelation begins by referring to the Jews as frauds and Satanists. We are people of the New Covenant, and the New Israel of that Covenant is the Church. John hints at this back in his gospel's 5th chapter, when the 12 apostles feed the followers of Christ and collect 12 baskets of leftovers. And again when Revelation tells us that those saved are 144,000. That number = 12 apostles x 12 tribes of the New Israel x 1000 (fullness, forever).
Caub:
Mel, may I ask you a question? What is your faith persuasion? Hanna, same question to you, if you don't mind? Thanks.
Mel:
Remember that in the OT, Israel is not a place but a man and his 12 sons, a man through whom the Covenant comes. The new and everlasting covenant comes through Jesus through his 12 apostles. And remember that when Joshua led the Israelites into the kingdom of the covenant, he was eventually replaced by judges. Jesus, which is Greek for "Joshua" told the 12 apostles that they would sit on thrones as judges in his kingdom.
Mel:
Remember that in the OT, Israel is not a place but a man and his 12 sons, a man through whom the Covenant comes. The new and everlasting covenant comes through Jesus through his 12 apostles. And remember that when Joshua led the Israelites into the kingdom of the covenant, he was eventually replaced by judges. Jesus, which is Greek for "Joshua" told the 12 apostles that they would sit on thrones as judges in his kingdom.
Mel:I'm a Cat'lic Cajun from N'awlins. Small world, isn't it? LOL
Caub:
Indeed. Who DAT?
Caub:
Mel, Revelation is actually a four part reference: Mary as Israel, the Church, Eve, and Mary.
Mel
Yes, we see all of salvation history played out in this one vision- Eve and Israel (past), Mary(the New Eve) and the Church (the New Israel)- present and future.
Hanna, I was hoping to hear from you to explain your views above, but, no such luck. In short, you are a little off base. The blessed Virgin is depicted with 12 stars over her head because in Revelation 12:1-2, a pregnant woman who is about to give birth is clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and with a crown of twelve stars on her head. The woman is believed to symbolize the Blessed Mother, among other things, because the child she delivers is "a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron ... [and] her child was caught up to God and to his throne" (Rev. 12:5). The stars in the crown may represent either Christ's 12 apostles or the 12 tribes of Israel. I have much more to say on this, if you'd care to explain your, uh, somewhat unusual take on the chapter. Thanks, and God bless you.
Hannahttp://www.thepropheticyears.com/The%20book%20of%20Revelation/Revelation%20Chapter%2012.htm
Go to this link for the Biblical explanation of Revelation 12.
Revelation chapter 12 commentary
www.thepropheticyears.com
Futurist commentary on Revelation chapter 12, by Don Koenig - John sees a woman ...with a Man Child and a red dragon who seeks to devour the Child as soon as He is born
Caub:
Well, Hanna, I have a few thoughts about this. First, it is most significant to note that Adam and Eve were revealed merely as "the man" and "the woman," before the woman’s name was changed after the fall to "Eve." (In Hebrew, Eve means “mother of the living.")
When you then look at the New Covenant, Jesus is explicitly referred to as the "last Adam," or the "New Adam" in 1 Cor. 15:45. Jesus himself then indicates that Mary is the prophetic "woman" or "New Eve" of Genesis 3:15 when he refers to her as "woman" in John 2:4 and 19:26.
St. John also refers to Mary as "woman" EIGHT times in Revelation 12. As the first Eve brought death to all her children through disobedience of God and heeding the call of the serpent, the devil, the "New Eve" of Revelation 12 brings life and salvation to all her children through her obedience.
The same "serpent" that deceived the original “woman” of Genesis is revealed, in Revelation 12, to fail in his attempt to overcome this NEW woman. The New Eve, of course, overcomes the serpent, and as a result, "The serpent is angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God, and bear testimony to Jesus" (Rev. 12:17).
Caub:
Second, since your link references "symbolic scripture," let’s take a deeper look at this. Revelation says, "And a great portent appeared in heaven, a Woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery. . . . [S]he brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne. . . . Then the dragon was angry with the Woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus" (Rev. 12:1–2, 5, 17).
There is some debate about what the symbol of this Woman represents, and there are several different possible meanings, depending on how one reads it.
Unfortunately, most of the debate over what the “Woman” represents is misdirected because it does not take into account the way that Revelation uses symbolism.
You see, the vision contains "fusion imagery." In “fusion imagery,” one symbol is composed of elements from several different things. For example, the four living creatures John sees around God’s throne (4:6–8) are a fusion of elements from the cherubim seen in Ezekiel10:1–14 and the seraphim seen in Isaiah 6:1–5.
Similarly, the priest-elders John sees around the throne (4:4) are numbered 24 because they are a fusion of the 12 patriarchs of Israel and the 12 apostles of Jesus, a symbolism that occurs at the end of the book (21:12–14), where New Jerusalem is seen to have 12 foundations with the names of the 12 apostles and 12 gates with the names of the 12 patriarchs.
The beast from the sea in chapter 13 is a fusion of elements from the all four of the beasts the prophet Daniel saw emerge from the sea in chapter 7 of his book.
Similarly, Polyvalent symbolism - in which symbols have more than one meaning – is also part of Revelation’s imagery. For example, the seven heads of the beast are said to be both seven mountains (Rev. 17:9) and seven kings (17:10).
The “Woman” in Revelation 12 is part of the fusion imagery/polyvalent symbolism that is found in the book. She has four referents: Israel, the Church, Eve, and Mary.
She is Israel because she is associated with the sun, the moon, and 12 stars. These symbols are drawn from Genesis 37:9–11, in which Joseph has a dream of the sun and moon (symbolizing his father and mother) and stars (representing his brothers), which bow down to him. Taken together, the sun, moon, and 12 stars symbolize the people of Israel.
The Woman is the Church because, as 12:17 tells us, "the rest of her offspring" are those who bear witness to Jesus, making them Christians.
The Woman is Eve because she is part of the 3-way conflict also involving her Seed and the Dragon, who is identified with the ancient serpent (the one from Eden) in 20:2. This mirrors the conflict in Genesis 3:15 among Eve, the serpent, and her unborn seed. In turn, this is a symbol of the conflict among Mary, Satan, and Jesus.
Finally, the Woman is Mary because she is the mother of Jesus, the child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron (19:11–16).
Because the Woman is a four-way symbol, different aspects of the narrative apply to different referents. Like Mary, she is pictured as being in heaven and she flies (mirroring Mary’s Assumption). Like the Church, she is persecuted by the Devil after the Ascension of Christ. Like Israel, she experiences great trauma as the Messiah is brought forth (figuratively) from the nation. And like Eve, it is her (distant) seed with which the serpent has his primary conflict.
Conversely, portions of the narrative do not apply to each referent. Mary did not experience literal pain when bringing forth the Messiah, but she suffered figuratively (the prophecy that a sword would pierce her heart at the Crucifixion). Eve did not ascend to heaven. And the Church did not bring forth the Messiah (rather, the Messiah brought forth his Church).
Caub:
Third, and finally, I mined the "prophetic years" website and find it, well, intellectually immature, particularly the "Statement of Faith."
Two questions I'd have for the guy who wrote the website (Don Koenig) and you, as his follower, are: (1) How do you know the book you are holding in your hand is the Bible? Seriously, it doesn't have an inspired table of contents, so how and when - precisely - did we get it, and in what form?
(2) For a Christian, truth is important (it will set us free), and Jesus Christ IS the truth. So, for a Christian, what is the pillar and foundation of all truth? Don and you, I assume, would say that the pillar and foundation of all truth is the Bible. Would my assumption be correct? Thanks, and God bless....
Caub:
One more thing... Here are some, um, interesting observations from Don Koenig’s website (linked at the bottom):
“The whole world monetary system will have to be scrapped, the most advanced nations will be technically bankrupted because of debt. A new world monetary system will be set up.”
“By the end of the decade (this was written in 2009, so it was obviously wrong) religious teaching on the air waves and Internet will be controlled. You will have to subscribe to receive any religious teachings. Proselytizing will not be allowed in most of the world.”
“The true Church of Jesus Christ will have to go underground in most areas of the world and she will be at great risk.” (Interesting how this conflicts with Matthew 16)
“Due to the growing differences between liberals and conservatives certain states in the United States will secede and there might even be a civil war. There certainly will be conflicts in areas where police attempt to take away peoples guns. I think the nation will break up into several separate nation states based on ideology but that the separate nations will continue to have open borders and reciprocal agreements.”
“By the end of the decade all nation states in North America will join a new North American Union or face total isolation.”
“There will be total surveillance of all electronic communications. The Internet will be policed, monitored and filtered. Talk radio and websites will have to be politically correct or they will be shut down.”
“There will be food and gas rationing for most of the decade. Fuel will be very expensive and travel will be restricted.”
“Government will tax 90 percent of income over a certain level.”
And my favorite: “In spite of what some are now teaching, the Lord will not physically return to earth during this decade BUT THE RAPTURE COULD OCCUR (OR IT MAY NOT).” Good one, Don, way to go out on a limb!
Yup, Don Koenig is surely a guy I’d hitch my spiritual wagon to!! Sheesh, what a loon!
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/don-koenigs-2010-2020-world-trends-forecast.html
Don Koenig's world trends forecast for 2010-2020 AD
www.thepropheticyears.com
Don Koenig's world trends forecast for 2010-2020 AD
Mel
To refer to "THE Biblical explanation" implies that there is only ONE Biblical explanation. It also implies that my explanation is UNbiblical. That is presumptuous, along with a few other adjectives I'll avoid.
Caub
Yeah, Mel, perhaps I should have been a little less presumptuous. But, if you read the guy's website, well, it's really funny/sad/odd/immature/silly - pick a few more...
Mel
Don't worry Caub- I wasn't talking to you! LOL
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